poisoned God language

Christians sometimes tend to push their agendas. People with bad experiences with Christians and church have poisoned views of church, religion, Christians, and God. But really we all long for love, beauty, truth, justice. In our attempts to dialogue, I contend we should builds bridges, and realize our common longings, not pick at other's wounds, or pound them with apologetics.

Here is some interesting dialogue I encountered.
Weigh in with your thoughts.

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from x:
lisa—you’re absolutely correct that [certain] reality is in the eye of the beholder. Seeing a perfect rose one day might impress upon me the beauty of the world at large one day and the next depress me because of the shallowness of what is accepted as “beauty”.

I don’t read Craig as being any less insistent upon his version of reality than anyone else, but perhaps I’m wrong. Each of us experiences the world and crafts our own reality from it. The dinner I just ate was “okay” to me but “great” to my husband. These are, I suppose, competing versions of reality and neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind. There may be no “neutral standpoint”, but that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss our experiences and both come away richer for it.

I’m not sure that science produces elitism any more than any other discipline (talk to any theologian, philosopher, or historian—or their armchair varieties). I’m not certain that science & religion are so at odds, I just think they describe vastly different matters. Just as philosophical logic is ill-suited to maths, mathematical logic is ill-suited to philosophy. Religion and science are similarly compatible but separate. I think a scientific approach to the Divine is idiotic—and a religious approach to science is criminal.

So we’re left with experiences. My experience of the Church of my parents is one of oppression, violence, and hatred. I’ve met wonderful people whose experience of that same religion is uplifting, peaceful, and holy. I’m baffled by that, but I respect it. My experience of atheism has been a community of disaffected ex-religionists who, in community, find solace, comfort, and safety away from the violence that religion has done to us.

Personally, I think it’s irresponsible of AA to preach God as a way to get over addiction. That’s not getting over addiction, that’s replacing a physically damaging addiction with a mentally damaging one.

I agree that there probably isn’t an “absolute truth” or definite answer to life, the universe, and everything (unless it’s 42), but I also think that you can touch truth, beauty, and perfection to know it exists. Sometimes, knowing that Justice is out there is the only thing that gives me hope. But I don’t pray to her, or worship her. I find it difficult to believe that any god needs my worship and adoration, or cares enough about my puny human problems to intercede & change the universe so that I’m happy. I think meditation/prayer are useful tools for me to get a grip on my own psyche and that ritual serves a need for routine. Just about every other aspect of religion (besides community) seems inherently dangerous, disingenuous, and, for want of a better word, evil.

26Craig // Nov 2, 2008 at 8:51 pm

x, it’s actually “47″.

But other than that, I agree completely.

27lisa // Nov 3, 2008 at 6:29 am

I just loved your post x. I totally agree with your “touch truth” sentence.

I’m surprised that you say that your atheist friends are made up of people who are just people who been hurt by religion. I should say I’m not surprised, too. I’ve been hurt by Christians too, and churches. Not good ones, though. Problem ones. It is a broken world. Free choice = potential problems, but also opportunity to do good freely as well. It so sad when people fail the God they supposedly love. It does much damage, I agree very much.

I guess to me it just seems like an emotional reason to not believe in God, not a very logical one, though the logical reason I guess get thought of later. I thought your group would be more thoughtful, coming from a more neutral spot. That’s so sad to hear, and my heart goes out to you and your friends. That totally sucks. If I had the chance I would love to speak to those who hurt you and tell them a few things.

I’m so sorry those things happened. They did the opposite of Love. In a community of love, those things are fought against. I experience the best and closest, most beautiful friendship you could imagine. My family was screwed up, but now I get to experience true Love, and I can tell you it’s very life changing. It’s not based on a rejection of another group for bonding and solace though. I truly hope you can find healing for the evils done against you.

Have you forgiven them?

28
x // Nov 3, 2008 at 3:20 pm

I guess I wouldn’t say that my atheist group is “just” people hurt by religion but that, having been hurt by religion, these people left it. My husband, as I often say, is the most a-theistic person I know, having been raised in an environment that never mentioned God. He’s also one of the most well-adjusted when it comes to religion. But he has no need of the atheist community like I do.

The apology on behalf religionists who cause injury is something that I come across rather frequently and I respect the place from which it comes, but I have to say that I find it rather disingenuous, since I would bet money that the people who apologize participate in the same hurtful actions that those who should apologize do. And as a sister once told me, an apology means nothing if there is intent to do it again.

Forgiveness is a very religious concept; one of many I’m trying to get out of my psyche. I can say that they acted in the way that they thought was right and that, when they stand before their God in the Court of their Heaven, they will have nothing to answer for. This does not make my wounds any shallower, but it helps me in my daily interactions with those who caused them.

Religion as a thing of beauty can exist only in the mind of one of its adherents. As soon as it enters two minds, its beauty is destroyed and it seeks only to cause pain. Jesus once said that he is there, wherever two or more are gathered. I think the real Truth of religion is that the Divine is only there in the silence of our hearts—in Beauty, in Love, and in Truth. But never collectively.

29lisa // Nov 3, 2008 at 6:57 pm

Well, x, you bring up an interesting point, and I also think a contradiction.

You said, “I think the real Truth of religion is that the Divine is only there in the silence of our hearts—in Beauty, in Love, and in Truth. But never collectively.” You also spoke of Justice in a similar way earlier. I think you are speaking of ideals. Yes? I think that you understand these to be something that you consider to be real, not fictitious. Yes? Things to give hope, to aspire to, and these things actually point “off the map.” Really they are not just found within. For instance, if you extinguished human life and creation, in an instance, Beauty and Truth and Justice and Love would not cease to be real.

Many people consider this to be spiritual language for that reason. If these things are beyond us, and infinite, perfection, and not fictitious, what are we really speaking of?

To know of these things and then to box them down as only infinite, and not powerful enough to be both infinite and also personal, smacks as ironical.

Beside that, I think people do share these ideals between others, not just in the silence of their hearts, but also within them as well. Part of loving someone can involve a deep shared love for these things and increased intimacy that grows between the two. My experience reflects the unity of community toward the divine, I believe, enacting the Trinity, in fact, if done properly.

To forgive really only means to cancel a debt. I’m not sure I understand why you think it is religious. Do you think people should not forgive each other? people should not apologize or offer others forgiveness for wrongs? Maybe you could unpack that for me, I guess I don’t understand your take on that one. I think, “Why carry a grudge? It’s like carrying around poison, no? Forgiving never validates an offense, but it does release the victim from more pain.”

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There is a lot of hurt out there. christians and church has done a bunch of it, too I've heard the pain first hand. What are ways we can reach people with God's love, in ways that really matter?

excerpt... (my article at theooze.com

As we get to be true friends, we start to know each other. Let me tell you, no one is normal. The next phase of a deepening friendship is the “reality phase”. It’s when you realize the friend you have has problems. They have a terrible temper or jealousy troubles. They are way too sensitive, or inconsiderate, or gossip, or get annoyed at trivial things. Or they have the worst problem of all– they see you as having problems. Which, of course, seems impossible at first. You start to resent them or become confused. It’s frustrating and increasingly complicated. The illusion of the perfect friendship begins to die or become real, which in this world is the same thing. The dream is dying, but like a seed dies and births new life the dream of idealized friendship dies and give birth to a flesh and blood relationship. And then you have a choice to make.

You have to decide if you want to be gracious or selfish. That is harder than it sounds, and most of us don’t even realize that it is this particular choice at stake. Many of us go for it. We try to work with what we’ve got. Some of us, who have more mistrust, or have been wounded, well, we get scared. Some of us, at this point, sort of run off. Or we disconnect a bit. They might not notice it, but we know what we’re doing. It’s a built in safety feature. It doesn’t give us any practice at grace, but it makes us feel better for a while.

It makes us feel better until we realize what we’ve given up. We’ve forfeited something that the core of our heart desires so badly. We yearn deep from that place to be known and loved. We hunger to experience grace. We’ve given it up because we don’t think it’ll work out right. We’ll get hurt again. Things will go badly. So we get stuck.

The “reality phase” is a real bummer. But if we push through it suitably and determine to learn something, we can end up better than we started. We can have deep friendships so long as we can regularly negotiate a gracious environment. If we are intentional about it, things will go so much better. Again, easier said than done.

Beyond our close friendships, I believe, we can have a couple “core people” that we let in even closer. I don’t think these “core people” should just be anybody. This group should be small in number, fairly mature people, mostly kindhearted, and worthy of our trust, but we can’t think they’ll be perfect either. Nobody will be that.

I didn’t have this all thought out at the time, but in the concert line with my friends, I thought it was worth the risk to reveal what they would be getting into. Finally, after a good bit of internal angst, I said to them, “If you really got to know me you wouldn’t like me.”

This, of course, was met with what I expected. “That’s not true.” And “That’s really sad that you would think that.” And “We already know you, and we love you.” And “There isn’t anything that would make us not like you.” And all the things people say before they realize they’ve been friends inadvertently with "the Devil". I didn’t believe them for a second. But I wanted to.

I didn’t believe it, I think, because I know how much of a wreck people are. I know how flawed I am. And in life people leave. They move away or go away. They move on, get fed up. They were hoping you’d be pre-packaged good times, and easy to deal with. They want the perfectly healthy friend, just like I hope to have. The friend that is always there, and always kind, and always supportive. Just like the person you barely know is. The people we don’t know make the best friends, right?

This of course is a lie. A person who barely knows you is an acquaintance. They make only a certain kind of friend. They can be helpful, and nurturing, but a friend, is someone who knows all about your crap, and is still okay with you. They love you and speak truth into your life. They help correct you in a very loving way, not to get you back, or hurt you, but to make you a better person. They are selfless like that. And if you don’t change when and how they want you to they still accept and love you. And you, being a person who is their real friend, do the same.

An acquaintance doesn’t need to operate in an environment of grace. Grace is medicine for desperate times. Grace steps in when illusion and superficiality ends. It’s the thing we need most in the “reality phases” of our lives. Grace defined as unearned favor, is really what deep friendships are all about.

This is why I think it’s much easier to read someone the Four Spiritual Laws and coach them in the sinner’s prayer than actually get involved in their life and be Jesus to them. We have enough trouble doing this with our best friends, doing that with the lost? Are you kidding? That would take the Holy Spirit. Who has time for that? I’m exhausted– show grace? Please!

Isn’t it funny, that this is exactly what we are to do? Not funny, just ironic, I guess. We are supposed to be letting the Spirit heal us, and function through us. We are created to be, or become, gracious and non superficial. When weren’t not,things get messed up. They feel unloved. We feel unloved. And we both feel too overwhelmed to be embodiments of grace. So much of the time, we spend our own energy to work this all out. But God’s power is right at our disposal.