Trinity, the model for community

As I begin my paper/project for my "Christians and Contemporary Spirituality" graduate class, something about the Trinity rises to the surface quite quickly.

I'm exploring the best-selling book "The Shack" to see if it can be helpful in reflecting God and the profound mystery of the Trinity for us through narrative in a useable way. Of course God is impossible to box, describe fully, or measure, but we can try presentations to "wrap our brains around" (as if it were possible) the Divine nature in our attempt to love and grow in relationship toward the Divine.

What is evident is that Trinity is relational and loving within "Itself" and is the perfect model of community and Christian love. When we model Triune love, we do well in modeling the love God wishes for us to have for each other.

Humanity will continue to show its flaws, and the (local) church as well, but it will also continue to have a model of perfect love exemplified in the Trinity.

How does your church show Triune love right now? How might it do it in ways it is not at present?

poisoned God language

Christians sometimes tend to push their agendas. People with bad experiences with Christians and church have poisoned views of church, religion, Christians, and God. But really we all long for love, beauty, truth, justice. In our attempts to dialogue, I contend we should builds bridges, and realize our common longings, not pick at other's wounds, or pound them with apologetics.

Here is some interesting dialogue I encountered.
Weigh in with your thoughts.

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from x:
lisa—you’re absolutely correct that [certain] reality is in the eye of the beholder. Seeing a perfect rose one day might impress upon me the beauty of the world at large one day and the next depress me because of the shallowness of what is accepted as “beauty”.

I don’t read Craig as being any less insistent upon his version of reality than anyone else, but perhaps I’m wrong. Each of us experiences the world and crafts our own reality from it. The dinner I just ate was “okay” to me but “great” to my husband. These are, I suppose, competing versions of reality and neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind. There may be no “neutral standpoint”, but that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss our experiences and both come away richer for it.

I’m not sure that science produces elitism any more than any other discipline (talk to any theologian, philosopher, or historian—or their armchair varieties). I’m not certain that science & religion are so at odds, I just think they describe vastly different matters. Just as philosophical logic is ill-suited to maths, mathematical logic is ill-suited to philosophy. Religion and science are similarly compatible but separate. I think a scientific approach to the Divine is idiotic—and a religious approach to science is criminal.

So we’re left with experiences. My experience of the Church of my parents is one of oppression, violence, and hatred. I’ve met wonderful people whose experience of that same religion is uplifting, peaceful, and holy. I’m baffled by that, but I respect it. My experience of atheism has been a community of disaffected ex-religionists who, in community, find solace, comfort, and safety away from the violence that religion has done to us.

Personally, I think it’s irresponsible of AA to preach God as a way to get over addiction. That’s not getting over addiction, that’s replacing a physically damaging addiction with a mentally damaging one.

I agree that there probably isn’t an “absolute truth” or definite answer to life, the universe, and everything (unless it’s 42), but I also think that you can touch truth, beauty, and perfection to know it exists. Sometimes, knowing that Justice is out there is the only thing that gives me hope. But I don’t pray to her, or worship her. I find it difficult to believe that any god needs my worship and adoration, or cares enough about my puny human problems to intercede & change the universe so that I’m happy. I think meditation/prayer are useful tools for me to get a grip on my own psyche and that ritual serves a need for routine. Just about every other aspect of religion (besides community) seems inherently dangerous, disingenuous, and, for want of a better word, evil.

26Craig // Nov 2, 2008 at 8:51 pm

x, it’s actually “47″.

But other than that, I agree completely.

27lisa // Nov 3, 2008 at 6:29 am

I just loved your post x. I totally agree with your “touch truth” sentence.

I’m surprised that you say that your atheist friends are made up of people who are just people who been hurt by religion. I should say I’m not surprised, too. I’ve been hurt by Christians too, and churches. Not good ones, though. Problem ones. It is a broken world. Free choice = potential problems, but also opportunity to do good freely as well. It so sad when people fail the God they supposedly love. It does much damage, I agree very much.

I guess to me it just seems like an emotional reason to not believe in God, not a very logical one, though the logical reason I guess get thought of later. I thought your group would be more thoughtful, coming from a more neutral spot. That’s so sad to hear, and my heart goes out to you and your friends. That totally sucks. If I had the chance I would love to speak to those who hurt you and tell them a few things.

I’m so sorry those things happened. They did the opposite of Love. In a community of love, those things are fought against. I experience the best and closest, most beautiful friendship you could imagine. My family was screwed up, but now I get to experience true Love, and I can tell you it’s very life changing. It’s not based on a rejection of another group for bonding and solace though. I truly hope you can find healing for the evils done against you.

Have you forgiven them?

28
x // Nov 3, 2008 at 3:20 pm

I guess I wouldn’t say that my atheist group is “just” people hurt by religion but that, having been hurt by religion, these people left it. My husband, as I often say, is the most a-theistic person I know, having been raised in an environment that never mentioned God. He’s also one of the most well-adjusted when it comes to religion. But he has no need of the atheist community like I do.

The apology on behalf religionists who cause injury is something that I come across rather frequently and I respect the place from which it comes, but I have to say that I find it rather disingenuous, since I would bet money that the people who apologize participate in the same hurtful actions that those who should apologize do. And as a sister once told me, an apology means nothing if there is intent to do it again.

Forgiveness is a very religious concept; one of many I’m trying to get out of my psyche. I can say that they acted in the way that they thought was right and that, when they stand before their God in the Court of their Heaven, they will have nothing to answer for. This does not make my wounds any shallower, but it helps me in my daily interactions with those who caused them.

Religion as a thing of beauty can exist only in the mind of one of its adherents. As soon as it enters two minds, its beauty is destroyed and it seeks only to cause pain. Jesus once said that he is there, wherever two or more are gathered. I think the real Truth of religion is that the Divine is only there in the silence of our hearts—in Beauty, in Love, and in Truth. But never collectively.

29lisa // Nov 3, 2008 at 6:57 pm

Well, x, you bring up an interesting point, and I also think a contradiction.

You said, “I think the real Truth of religion is that the Divine is only there in the silence of our hearts—in Beauty, in Love, and in Truth. But never collectively.” You also spoke of Justice in a similar way earlier. I think you are speaking of ideals. Yes? I think that you understand these to be something that you consider to be real, not fictitious. Yes? Things to give hope, to aspire to, and these things actually point “off the map.” Really they are not just found within. For instance, if you extinguished human life and creation, in an instance, Beauty and Truth and Justice and Love would not cease to be real.

Many people consider this to be spiritual language for that reason. If these things are beyond us, and infinite, perfection, and not fictitious, what are we really speaking of?

To know of these things and then to box them down as only infinite, and not powerful enough to be both infinite and also personal, smacks as ironical.

Beside that, I think people do share these ideals between others, not just in the silence of their hearts, but also within them as well. Part of loving someone can involve a deep shared love for these things and increased intimacy that grows between the two. My experience reflects the unity of community toward the divine, I believe, enacting the Trinity, in fact, if done properly.

To forgive really only means to cancel a debt. I’m not sure I understand why you think it is religious. Do you think people should not forgive each other? people should not apologize or offer others forgiveness for wrongs? Maybe you could unpack that for me, I guess I don’t understand your take on that one. I think, “Why carry a grudge? It’s like carrying around poison, no? Forgiving never validates an offense, but it does release the victim from more pain.”

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There is a lot of hurt out there. christians and church has done a bunch of it, too I've heard the pain first hand. What are ways we can reach people with God's love, in ways that really matter?

Suffering Broken Theology? what about Verification?

What about life.

What has meaning.... many ask. Many sort. Christians too.
More so all the time.

Does God seem distant? sleep at the wheel? unconcerned in your life?
Do you suffer from functional theologies that don't match your theoretical theologies Biblical or otherwise?

What do you use as a reference for your beliefs...which are in fact your Doctrines?.. yikes what a word.
Everyone is afraid of the word DOGMA... but every one ends up functioning on some kind of one, like it or not.

If we use ourselves --really our experience-- as a gauge for verification of our theology, our beliefs, we end up stranded. Eventually. Well, how could we not, really.

It's amazing how many Christians start with themselves to figure out life, and then feel so desperate, and still have no idea why. It's not entirely their fault. Christianity has been co-opting with modernity for its theology for a while, making it human centered and increasingly futile to sort out among the pervading view on ontology and millions of competing messages bombarding us. So many Christians feeling miserable, or something like it. That is a vapid life, and no wonder.

Some time tested spots for verification are-
Scripture
Devotional Classics
Church History (tradition)
Wise/trusted counsel of honorable friends or ministers
Propositional theology combined with Narrative theology

more to come on this . . .

America- the un-Christian nation and the way of Jesus

If we look at the words of Jesus, and we don't gloss over them, Jesus he spoke of his way--the way to God--as a "narrow path." Few would find it. Also, it he said it was a path that a rich man couldn't get to without a miracle from God. With a rich man's wealth, he would be so satisfied and distracted with himself, and with his possessions he would not be able to, would want to, or would find the Kingdom of heaven.

Sound like an American predicament? A bit.

"We" think we are a Christian nation. Funny, to think. But we are not. If anything, we are post-Christian. But were we ever "Christian"? Debatable.

Americans who like to think they are Christians, often shop for Church and for "jesus" or a spiritual pick-me-up, like any other consumer good. Sadly, the material and the holistic human creature don't fair well with a consumer capitalistic approach.

The way of Jesus (Christianity) is not fire insurance, it is a way of life. It is also view of the world through the Reality of the one who designed life-- with the Designer in mind, at the center of life. HERE and NOW. Not later.

Many Americans think they are in fact Christians, (in a sense following Christ). This is because they would say they are not Muslims, or Buddhists, or something else. But do they love Jesus? Are they devoted? Is he their prevailing Reality apart from which they cannot be? Um nope. But, if not, they are not true disciples.

Jesus' way, according to his teachings, is about true love for him and the Father. It's about first love, sustained love. It's not about getting a fix. It's not about making the right connection, to scratch the right itch. The Jesus way can be very humbling and painful. Uphill, with a cross daily, no less. It's also the way of dignity, and love filling us from the inside out. People forget that without God as center, we can only borrow dignity from another spot, it cannot be inherent. The way of Jesus is one of immense purpose, freedom with responsibility, justice within a reconciled, restored, living, and growing community. And too, hope of new life beyond the tumult and ills of this present world.

Jesus is the light and glory of the Greater Story, the one beyond the images and words we can muster, to the truest Reality we only begin to fathom, and more joy than we can tolerate.

Here is the invitation to the very narrow path. It is not where you think, up-for grabs or "purchase" at church. It is not the easy way. It comes when we forget ourselves to be found in God, and Jesus. It is not part of our American heritage, authentically, but it we can be authentically recreated and known.

Is God KNOWABLE?

Can we know God?

Yes and no. For one thing we can't even know people that well. We can live with a spouse for years and find out new things about them. People are deep wells of information, experiences, natures, and characters... but through time and devotion, we can get to know them....

BUT- what about God. God is SO different, right? He is UNFATHOMABLE. He created everything, and is everywhere, all-knowing, all-powerful, says Julie Clawson (at the emergent women website, thanks Julie) and says the Bible, right? How can we REALLY REALLY possibly KNOW him, right? He is beyond language. Correct? Well, the short answer is "yes, kind of."

God made it possible for us to have an amazing book in our reach called the Bible which talks all about him. It can't capture him fully with words, but certain language can loosely give a good contour. We can't sketch a sunset with pencil, but we can get some shapes down. We can't use words to describe what tasting coffee is truly like, but with words, we can outline a bit what the aroma is like and how good a warm cup tastes and feels when it is drank. One can imagine well what it is REALLY like based on a word description. So too with God. The reality of him can be known, but not fully grasped. He is knowable, but not fully comprehendible. It is limited knowledge, but entirely useful.

Let us not dismiss some of our best ways to encounter God by calling them shoddy when we use and trust language for so much else. It is on the basis of language, words, and propositions, that we first encounter all our initial ideas before they are incorporated into our lives. They are a starting point, not the end all be all to knowing God.

Do you know God? How have you encountered him? Feel free to leave your comments.

Unsettling findings about church (likely yours and mine)

- Shallow "Folk Theology" held by followers

- Very limited growth spiritually speaking

- Limited discipling/mentoring taking place for people to become like Jesus

- People seeing church as a place to "be fed" and not pursuing God with spiritual hunger on their own (and not knowing how to do that)

- Spiritual life and daily life (or work life) seen as separate live or domains

- Directionless growth or a meaninglessness to spiritual nature of things (spiritual things are experienced and one bounces from experience to experience)


I think we can improve here.
MORE TO COME . . .

pulse in and beyond the pews

the new website that goes with the book has a blogspot that promises to be an engaging spot for those in and outside the Christian community.

outoftheooze.theooze.com/