Sometimes the righteous people don't get it (then and now)

Copied from my post contribution on http://inamirrordimly.com

This is a nice series Ed, and thanks for putting it down.

Many approach “witnessing” as debate, and/or a goal-oriented task…the goal is convert…The guilt runs high too. The stakes are SO HIGH. The eternal soul! But, God is awfully big and powerful, and the Holy Spirit is at work, so being like Jesus is our best bet. I feel really comfortable with God’s capabilities.

While it’s true that Jesus told some to “go and sin no more,” he must have done it gently with sincere love, because sinners loved to be with him, and their lives were transformed. Jesus’ harshest words were very fiery, but they were expressly for the religious establishment–a wake up call. It gives one pause. Maybe righteous types just don’t “get it”? The story of redemption has far less to do with anger, in fact, it has almost nothing to do with it, unless you split up the Trinity into three gods. A Holy God needs recompense for sin before reconciliation, yes. But God provided a way to himself. This is a message of hope, love, and grace. To give a message that will sink into the heart of people, we have to remember we are saved to something, not from something. (Even now, without God, unbelieving sinners are caught in the “hell of self”.) It’s time to just invite them home.

On violence

Ken Miller, PhD 5/5/09

On violence of the crucifixion-

God used our violence, and submitted to it, (in Christ's death) to solve the problem, to save us from our violence.

Prayer Exercise for Groups-Jacob's Ladder

Visual: Jacob’s Ladder by William Blake



Prayer Exercise
Dreamwork – Praying using Images and Symbols



Jacob's Ladder

A portal, a threshold,
To the Presence
The unconscious awakens
In another realm
To Spirit, and symbol
Upon heights where angels
Murmur and gaze
And saints gather
In the Light
-lcd



Reading: Genesis 28:10-19

Prayerfully listen to the reading, and sketch
images that come to mind during reflection or
prayer time. (Or note words from those images.)

Silent Prayer:

Prayer:
God, Great Dreamer, Creator of our waking and
Our sleep. Meet us in our dreams. Speak to us with
Your Presence, and your whispers Divine. Awaken us
To your Reality evermore even from the shadowy
Realms of our slumber, that we may plunge further into your
Love. Amen.
-lcd

Music Presentation:
Artworks by Victor Bregeda. Song by Paul Lisney, Jacobs Ladder

(artwork/music presentation full link: http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=e7fd6b80e21b060137ac)

If you have located God...

If you have located God, whether in experience or locale, mode or method, be assured it cannot be the Divine. God is not fully known, or knowable. For God is no-thing, no object, no sensation, no perception that we should confuse with that with the real "him" (Spirit). We know in part. We glimpse the light trails. Both cannot be true that he can be everywhere and Spirit, and also so very graspable in the ways we usually think so. That is why the Logos of God is so helpful. (Christians call him Jesus. God in flesh.) But God, worshiped in spirit and truth, the Eternal, is always with us, always Other, always approachable, and always incomprehensible, immeasurable. Unpinned down, except in our delusions.

escaping God

I remember being five and hiding under my blankets and thinking, "God can't see me here. Nobody can see me." I knew this probably couldn't be true, but I remember even then wanting privacy. The bigness of God is frightening if we really consider the reality of it. And for that reason, I suppose it is no wonder we wouldn't try to run, even if it might be in vain. Even if we know it is in vain. Just as much as it can be frightening, it can be comforting too, and overwhelming if we realize the immensity of all that power and love turned toward us. It is willing turned toward us.

I used to think God was basically displeased with me, and with humanity. I think I was sold a human idea of God. Maybe it was a doctrine based on keeping people in line. If behavior modification is what religion is for, then it's nonsense. But I don't believe that's it. If God is Creator, then "he" knows all about us. "He" is acquainted with our instinct to run off, and still loves us. Just like I love my daughter and son, despite their less than wonderful actions sometimes. And I imagine God is much better at patience than me. God does epitomize all of my ideals of perfection, and hold in "himself" the capability to love without end and bounds, seeing and knowing all. There is always someone to come home to. That home is begins with awareness, that God will/does abide within.

Discovering/re-discovering God-Continuing Theology

Resistance lives on the fringe of growth, near our periphery. When we have to reconsider what we’ve known, and adjust to realities bigger than what we first realized. God is bigger…always bigger than we figure on. Just when we get a grip on our theology, he will stretch us further. The bounds of his mission, his grace, his love, and his “Otherness” pushes us further on, into this unknown, and really unknowing.

Title change

If you've been here before, you might notice I changed the title at the top of the page here.

In English the word "Spirit" is derived from the Latin word "Spiritus" which is translated from the Greek word for "breath" (Pneuma).

Realizing that God is Spirit and has no body, it may give new perspective to the Scripture:

Genesis 2:7 (New International Version - UK)
The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

(continued from Feb 6) ... adult development / identity crisis

If you found yourself falling into the list on the Feb 6 post, you are like many adults. You find yourself floating mainly in a "stage 4" of adult development (see: Erikson, Leibert, Kolhberg, Fowler, etc). The trouble with this is that a crisis of identity is likely near at hand, or a transition from this stage may cause emotional and spiritual turmoil that may feel disconcerting, surprising, or troubling.

It is quite common in midlife, or sooner, (especially if one is reflective, or experiences tragedy) to question the deeper meanings of existence. At this point, people tend to either regress, or move onward to deeper spiritual progression. While some get fast sport cars, a mistress, or plastic surgery, (perhaps a regression, or a misguided and roundabout way to finding meaning) others might re-think their priorities. They might down shift from the fast lane of high paying jobs and big mortgages, and spend more time with family and walking with their Maker. Each person's way will look different.

You will find your movement to the next stages more obvious when some of these qualities emerge:
- Neat boundaries for knowing become more faint and less certain
- Interests take on aims beyond self-preoccupation into other's realities
- Self-reflection for the purpose of betterment is more possible as the needs of others become more of a focus
- Once cherished boundaries are less important as one's sense of grace and justice for all takes hold. (boundaries like ethnicity, nationality, denomination, religion, class, etc.)

Send your questions or comments-

Broken love, and Other

A most difficult epiphany is to realize people, though sometimes well-intentioned, do not love well. Their love will be somehow contaminated by unmet longing and human imperfection. And in them, we will wish for our desires to be fulfilled. So, we get it wrong, and we try again. Or we start to protect ourselves.

When we reach up, or out, or in, (because God is Omnipresent, that is, everywhere present) to the Other that is not us, that is Supreme, a kind of Love may be found that can satisfy, and fill up with renewable love. This has been termed "saving grace" and "living water", and it will fill and then will and can spill out from us on to others for their benefit. I've found it's the only non broken kind of love. For human kinds of love, we must hold them loosely-not hoping they quench something for us. And we must love freely, drawing from this better Spring/Source.

"Pride" the sermon lesson that seems like it's for "other people"

Jesus shared this parable:
Luke 18:9-14

The Parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector -
18:9 Jesus also told this parable to some who were confident that they were righteous and looked down on everyone else. 18:10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed about himself like this: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: extortionists, unrighteous people, adulterers – or even like this tax collector. 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of everything I get.’ 18:13 The tax collector, however, stood far off and would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, be merciful to me, sinner that I am!’ 18:14 I tell you that this man went down to his home justified rather than the Pharisee. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This is an interesting parable. When we place ourselves in it and image we are the Pharisee, we would think, "I'm not really all that bad." If we are the tax collector." We would think, "Lord, I need you." Either way we stand to get it wrong. But why?

This parable by centrifugal force pops us back out of the parable to examen our true motives and attitudes. In truth, Pride is an ingrained human trait, a sickness, of which we are blind to. When when hear stories about it, it's usually heard as a message for "the other guy". Sure, we might be repentant, and ask God for mercy, but as we become self-satisfied with this gesture, we are back where we started in a Pharisaical mindset, thinking nothing much is wrong with us.

We bounce back and forth like this, between the two, in a polemic dynamic, though sometimes not realizing it. What might we do about it? We can start by realizing our utter dependency on grace. What a long way we have to go.

Jesus was above all things, humble. This was his chief character trait. This is quite shocking. Why would GOD have to be humble? He shouldn't have to be. He doesn't have to be. This truly is the way of God. We don't know this way, or even understand it. It's totally against our nature, and our ingraining.

The the tiny and powerful book by Andrew Murray, "Humility: The Journey Toward Holiness" shows the ministry and example of Jesus in an amazing way I never considered before.

Trinity, the model for community

As I begin my paper/project for my "Christians and Contemporary Spirituality" graduate class, something about the Trinity rises to the surface quite quickly.

I'm exploring the best-selling book "The Shack" to see if it can be helpful in reflecting God and the profound mystery of the Trinity for us through narrative in a useable way. Of course God is impossible to box, describe fully, or measure, but we can try presentations to "wrap our brains around" (as if it were possible) the Divine nature in our attempt to love and grow in relationship toward the Divine.

What is evident is that Trinity is relational and loving within "Itself" and is the perfect model of community and Christian love. When we model Triune love, we do well in modeling the love God wishes for us to have for each other.

Humanity will continue to show its flaws, and the (local) church as well, but it will also continue to have a model of perfect love exemplified in the Trinity.

How does your church show Triune love right now? How might it do it in ways it is not at present?

Reason for the Season - which one?

There are lots of reasons for the season. Right?


Some will tell you it's to get us out of the terrible economy. We almost have a responsibility to SPEND. How else can we put people to work, and help companies, than to buy the goods and services that keep people in the jobs they have? Don't we HAVE TO be consumers at this point?

Some people will tell you the reason for the season is THE CROSS. My mom sent along a song in four part harmony that coaxed us to remember it was not the presents under the tree, but the cross, that was the reason for the season. Jesus' death, not his birth is the reason for the season.

Some will tell you, it's not religious, that's all hype. Jesus was really born in April, and this is all a bunch of pretense. We pretend he was born in December, but it's all just another load of hooey.

Some will tell you the reason for the season is Santa, or the Festival of Lights, or the Winter Solstice, or Kwanzaa, or being with those you love, or you own personal reason.

I think it's just simple. God became flesh. The Incarnation. Yes other things happened, and they were important, but without the miracle of the Incarnation, the glory of this fact, and the grace of it, we don't have as much, in a sense, because so much is left out.

You can weigh in . . . maybe your reasons are different.

Maybe you like Frosty the Snowman, or listening to the Chipmunks this time of year.
Have you found the Reason, reason enough?

ARE YOU A PRAYER NINJA?

We’ve all heard of Prayer Warriors, right?

They are people of prayer. They go to God in times of need. They make intercession for others. They’ve seen prayers answered time and again, and we take our needs to them when we have them. It’s almost like we feel they have a better, or more direct, line to the Almighty. Maybe they’ve gotten some brownie points for putting in major time with God. (if he was that type of God, but he isn't) For some reason, these types are warriors of prayer, and everyone knows it. Maybe you fit in this category? Maybe you know someone who does?

You may have heard of prayer warriors, but have you ever heard of prayer ninjas?

What about prayer aces?
What about prayer paratroopers, or prayer foot soldiers?
Oh, they’re real. They are very real.

A Prayer Ninja is, of course, impossible to spot at first. You’ll be having a conversation with a normal seeming person, and suddenly they will say, ‘Let’s pray about that, right now!” And you will think, “Right here, in the check out line?” And twelve minutes later they will finish their prayer, but you will have only been thinking about how caught off guard you were by their prayer ninja skills.

A Prayer Ace is the type admired by all. One doesn’t want to follow a Prayer Ace at Prayer Meeting on Wednesday nights. Somehow they always have the right things to say, and can use fairly flowery language. Their only weaknesses are going too long, or throwing in a “thee” or “thou” to sound religious. Everyone knows God can’t stand Elizabethan language in Bibles or prayers these days.

A Prayer Paratrooper is the type to add noises, words, and comments while others are praying. They say things like, “Thank you, Jesus,” or “Yes, Lord.” Sometimes they mummer, sigh, or make other affirming sounds, or audible signs to show they are involved or profoundly moved by what is happening.

A Prayer Foot Soldier will always be willing to take a personal hit for the team. Often at their own social peril, for lack of gifting or preparation, they will sort of bungle their way through a prayer when asked to do it on the spot. Often they pray rather quietly because this sort of thing has happened before. Nevertheless, they will do it time and again because they are good people.

You might be one of these people, and that’s okay.

It’s good to remember that when it comes to prayer it’s not up to you or me. Prayer is not voodoo. It’s not magical. Prayer, in itself, is not even what changes situations. It’s the God we pray to that makes the difference in our lives. It is God that helps us live with what ever the situation turns out to be.

I’m writing a book on prayer right now, so stay tuned for many more ideas, (including ones like these that aren't going to be super serious) about prayer.

Now it's your turn:
Which prayer person would you admit to being sometimes?
Can you think of other types? (be creative)

What prayer have you seen answered recently?

poisoned God language

Christians sometimes tend to push their agendas. People with bad experiences with Christians and church have poisoned views of church, religion, Christians, and God. But really we all long for love, beauty, truth, justice. In our attempts to dialogue, I contend we should builds bridges, and realize our common longings, not pick at other's wounds, or pound them with apologetics.

Here is some interesting dialogue I encountered.
Weigh in with your thoughts.

------
from x:
lisa—you’re absolutely correct that [certain] reality is in the eye of the beholder. Seeing a perfect rose one day might impress upon me the beauty of the world at large one day and the next depress me because of the shallowness of what is accepted as “beauty”.

I don’t read Craig as being any less insistent upon his version of reality than anyone else, but perhaps I’m wrong. Each of us experiences the world and crafts our own reality from it. The dinner I just ate was “okay” to me but “great” to my husband. These are, I suppose, competing versions of reality and neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind. There may be no “neutral standpoint”, but that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss our experiences and both come away richer for it.

I’m not sure that science produces elitism any more than any other discipline (talk to any theologian, philosopher, or historian—or their armchair varieties). I’m not certain that science & religion are so at odds, I just think they describe vastly different matters. Just as philosophical logic is ill-suited to maths, mathematical logic is ill-suited to philosophy. Religion and science are similarly compatible but separate. I think a scientific approach to the Divine is idiotic—and a religious approach to science is criminal.

So we’re left with experiences. My experience of the Church of my parents is one of oppression, violence, and hatred. I’ve met wonderful people whose experience of that same religion is uplifting, peaceful, and holy. I’m baffled by that, but I respect it. My experience of atheism has been a community of disaffected ex-religionists who, in community, find solace, comfort, and safety away from the violence that religion has done to us.

Personally, I think it’s irresponsible of AA to preach God as a way to get over addiction. That’s not getting over addiction, that’s replacing a physically damaging addiction with a mentally damaging one.

I agree that there probably isn’t an “absolute truth” or definite answer to life, the universe, and everything (unless it’s 42), but I also think that you can touch truth, beauty, and perfection to know it exists. Sometimes, knowing that Justice is out there is the only thing that gives me hope. But I don’t pray to her, or worship her. I find it difficult to believe that any god needs my worship and adoration, or cares enough about my puny human problems to intercede & change the universe so that I’m happy. I think meditation/prayer are useful tools for me to get a grip on my own psyche and that ritual serves a need for routine. Just about every other aspect of religion (besides community) seems inherently dangerous, disingenuous, and, for want of a better word, evil.

26Craig // Nov 2, 2008 at 8:51 pm

x, it’s actually “47″.

But other than that, I agree completely.

27lisa // Nov 3, 2008 at 6:29 am

I just loved your post x. I totally agree with your “touch truth” sentence.

I’m surprised that you say that your atheist friends are made up of people who are just people who been hurt by religion. I should say I’m not surprised, too. I’ve been hurt by Christians too, and churches. Not good ones, though. Problem ones. It is a broken world. Free choice = potential problems, but also opportunity to do good freely as well. It so sad when people fail the God they supposedly love. It does much damage, I agree very much.

I guess to me it just seems like an emotional reason to not believe in God, not a very logical one, though the logical reason I guess get thought of later. I thought your group would be more thoughtful, coming from a more neutral spot. That’s so sad to hear, and my heart goes out to you and your friends. That totally sucks. If I had the chance I would love to speak to those who hurt you and tell them a few things.

I’m so sorry those things happened. They did the opposite of Love. In a community of love, those things are fought against. I experience the best and closest, most beautiful friendship you could imagine. My family was screwed up, but now I get to experience true Love, and I can tell you it’s very life changing. It’s not based on a rejection of another group for bonding and solace though. I truly hope you can find healing for the evils done against you.

Have you forgiven them?

28
x // Nov 3, 2008 at 3:20 pm

I guess I wouldn’t say that my atheist group is “just” people hurt by religion but that, having been hurt by religion, these people left it. My husband, as I often say, is the most a-theistic person I know, having been raised in an environment that never mentioned God. He’s also one of the most well-adjusted when it comes to religion. But he has no need of the atheist community like I do.

The apology on behalf religionists who cause injury is something that I come across rather frequently and I respect the place from which it comes, but I have to say that I find it rather disingenuous, since I would bet money that the people who apologize participate in the same hurtful actions that those who should apologize do. And as a sister once told me, an apology means nothing if there is intent to do it again.

Forgiveness is a very religious concept; one of many I’m trying to get out of my psyche. I can say that they acted in the way that they thought was right and that, when they stand before their God in the Court of their Heaven, they will have nothing to answer for. This does not make my wounds any shallower, but it helps me in my daily interactions with those who caused them.

Religion as a thing of beauty can exist only in the mind of one of its adherents. As soon as it enters two minds, its beauty is destroyed and it seeks only to cause pain. Jesus once said that he is there, wherever two or more are gathered. I think the real Truth of religion is that the Divine is only there in the silence of our hearts—in Beauty, in Love, and in Truth. But never collectively.

29lisa // Nov 3, 2008 at 6:57 pm

Well, x, you bring up an interesting point, and I also think a contradiction.

You said, “I think the real Truth of religion is that the Divine is only there in the silence of our hearts—in Beauty, in Love, and in Truth. But never collectively.” You also spoke of Justice in a similar way earlier. I think you are speaking of ideals. Yes? I think that you understand these to be something that you consider to be real, not fictitious. Yes? Things to give hope, to aspire to, and these things actually point “off the map.” Really they are not just found within. For instance, if you extinguished human life and creation, in an instance, Beauty and Truth and Justice and Love would not cease to be real.

Many people consider this to be spiritual language for that reason. If these things are beyond us, and infinite, perfection, and not fictitious, what are we really speaking of?

To know of these things and then to box them down as only infinite, and not powerful enough to be both infinite and also personal, smacks as ironical.

Beside that, I think people do share these ideals between others, not just in the silence of their hearts, but also within them as well. Part of loving someone can involve a deep shared love for these things and increased intimacy that grows between the two. My experience reflects the unity of community toward the divine, I believe, enacting the Trinity, in fact, if done properly.

To forgive really only means to cancel a debt. I’m not sure I understand why you think it is religious. Do you think people should not forgive each other? people should not apologize or offer others forgiveness for wrongs? Maybe you could unpack that for me, I guess I don’t understand your take on that one. I think, “Why carry a grudge? It’s like carrying around poison, no? Forgiving never validates an offense, but it does release the victim from more pain.”

---

There is a lot of hurt out there. christians and church has done a bunch of it, too I've heard the pain first hand. What are ways we can reach people with God's love, in ways that really matter?

Interview / Dialogue with Ed Cyzewski author of "Coffeehouse Theology"

Thanks for taking the time for this interview and dialogue Ed!

As I mentioned before, feel free to post additional comments, or respond to comments. The nature of this medium is great for this sort of fluid exchange.



me: What was your main purpose in writing Coffeehouse Theology?

Ed: I took a swing at this one at the Emergent Village blog, but I'll swing again here. You don't have to read a lot of theology books to know they're not accessible for average people in the church, even the emergent books that claim to be easy reads. So I set out to pull together the various ideas out there for theology, but to also make them as accessible as possible. In addition, I wanted to help Christians move toward greater unity in the midst of theological diversity because we are united in our common love for Christ our Savior.



me: As a means of knowing God, Scripture isn't minimized in your book, it's given primacy. In postmodern times, where authority in general is seen with suspension, why do you posit to view Scripture with such authority, over experience, and other means?

Ed: Ha! I'm glad you asked the question that way. I use the word "primacy" to avoid the word authority. Scot McKnight just gave a great talk at Biblical Seminary on October 10th where he spoke about scriptural authority contrasted with the centrality of relationship, stating that God wants us to obey out of relationship, not out of authority. So scripture is primary, but it's primary because it leads us to a relationship with God. As we discover the love of God and love God as well, we'll obey scripture and we won't need an authoritarian view of scripture because it's leading us to obedience through a relationship with God.

I start theology with God at the center because the Holy Spirit is the one who teaches us from scripture. So we ultimately look to God, though scripture is primary over our traditions and other Christians. Our traditions and fellow Christians provide insights to guide our readings of scripture, meaning that scripture is primary and connects us with God, but we always need to interact with perspectives outside our own. As we interact with other perspectives and the Holy Spirit empowers us to live in the truth of scripture, we are better able to stand up under the suspicion of postmodern times.



me: Your take on lived out theology seems to be that a number of factors play into how we live out our belief and knowledge of God, and that’s it's important to see several things well to love God, understand him better, and live out our calling. How do you think we should rate their importance? (i.e. Scripture, culture, tradition, church, and so on.)

It's hard to really rate these things since it's an ongoing dialogue where we're always learning, interacting, shaping, and then reshaping our theology. I begin the book with culture not because it's most important, but if we don't understand culture and how it influences us and how we need to fulfill our prophetic calling in the world, then we are severely limited in our theology. So I wouldn't say culture is more important, but it can be a problem if not understood. Having said that, I'd say that we being theology with a relationship with God, then follow that with scripture, and then the traditions and global church.

me:
I appreciate your perspective about an "ongoing dialogue" which is involved in continually reshaping our theology. It seems these are dynamic, not stagnant, factors, and their interplay is what causes growth and lived out faith.

One common view of our times is that we can't arrive at truth solidly, (this occurs in Christian circles too). As we live out our theology (with the factors you’ve mentioned) what can we know?

Ed: As far as truth goes, we can know quite a bit. However, there have been shifts in the way we know, and the amount we think we know. Instead of digging into the Bible with an ahistorical approach seeking out absolute principles that are always true (I'm painting with broad strokes for the sake of brevity), we face the challenge of entering the Bible as participants in a theological conversation over 2000 years and across continents. We're not the only ones doing this, and our perspectives face the limitations of our context. Therefore, I'm interested in understanding my context, and the ways it shapes me so I am prepared to be relevant and prophetic, but also so I can seek out the perspectives of Christians throughout history and the world in order to bring balance and help sharpen my ideas. Perhaps my take on the truth will change, maybe it will not.

All that to say, to say we need to be humble about our take on the truth is not giving up on truth. If anything, I'm affirming what the Bible says about seeing only in a glass darkly and God's ways being higher than what we can conceive. God sees the big picture of truth, and so we seek out the Holy Spirit's lead within our Christian communities as we seek out God's life-changing truth. We don't give up because we can't be 100% certain, but rather we live by faith and continue to read, study, converse, and embody God's revelation.


me:
Can you explain briefly what you mean by "global church" how this plays into contextual theology?


Ed: [I mean] Christians throughout the world who offer different perspectives that we should consider for our theology. For example, Christians throughout the world opposed the Iraq War, while many Christians in America supported it. That strikes me as a situation where Christians in America need to ask why Christians throughout the world didn't support the war.

me:
To you, what things determine integrating global church perspectives to our own?

Ed: We look to Christians outside our own context because we'll never get the whole picture of the truth on our own. They will inevitably see things we will not. For example, in the book I talk about a study of Christians in Eastern Europe who made some striking observations about the famine and xenophobia in the parable of the prodigal son, points that Americans missed. I could read that story over and over again, but probably miss out on the nuances picked up by these Christians. Now I can see that Jesus is addressing fair wages, our treatment of foreigners, and feeding the hungry. How I live out my theology changes radically once I interact with these Christians, even if the core of Christian orthodoxy has not.

However, as we interact with Christians outside our own perspective, we should be careful to keep our central creeds in mind and always run our findings by trusted Christians who can help us process these perspectives. It's not a matter of simply dropping the evaluations of another context into our own, but rather comparing our theologies and letting these other theologies sharpen our own beliefs. Perhaps they'll merely affirm some of our beliefs, while in other cases we'll find ourselves needing to broaden some of our understandings or narrow them. This is always a matter of conversations, not a matter of making American theology win over Asian or Latin American theology. We all have limitations and have something to teach one another.

me: What one nugget of wisdom or vision would you hope to pass along from your book, if nothing else?

Ed: I think we can't overestimate the importance of making God the center in our theology. Jesus said the scriptures testified about him, so while scripture is important and even essential, scripture's main role is leading us to Christ. However, many churches make the Bible their foundation or starting point, which means disagreements on the Bible can divide churches. It's been this emphasis on pure doctrine derived from scripture over the person of Jesus that has caused so much division--we have a hard time dealing with doctrinal diversity because we have made the Bible our foundation, not Christ. While doctrine is important, and I would never leave behind the doctrines passed down throughout history in the creeds, it is the triune God we meet in the Christian faith. That means we cannot have any other starting or ending point than Christ Jesus.

me: Thanks for expounding a bit more on your book, and some ideas about knowing God. I hope the dialogue continues.

Object of affection

Even love unrequited has an entity of affections. A beloved in fantasy and imagination, though supposed, is still an object that is other.

We can never forget that to love, we cannot be alone. God, then must be One and also three persons. Before creation, the One could be recipient as lover and beloved as such. And with creation that love could continue should the creation be aware of love bestowed, and indeed, even better, give it back.

Is love the greatest thing? Yes. St. Paul says... "The greatest of these (faith, hope, and love) is love." It may be the single thing that proves we are not alone.

It is the sole thing of communal relationship-unity and harmony.

In the case of God, TRI-UNITY.

Emerging Christianity and back to school

Are we ever done learning and growing?
It can not be!

Our dogma--beliefs-- are never really (whether we are aware of it or not) fully explored, or vetted.

If we feel so certain we have come to a good spot, then either our eyes are closed and our ears are plugged, or we have a bumpy road ahead, perhaps even a crisis of faith to traverse around the bend.

God pulls our hand into deeper water where we cannot touch bottom and must try to swim,(doggie paddle) and then when we think we are so good at swimming, he will show us how to give up and float. It was, in fact never about swimming. Our energies fail-they are suppose to-and he alone can rescue us. Our energies will fail us and he will be right there being God, should we let him, and become truly mature, in any real way.

We can always go back to school. Many Christians are dropouts, but I really believe in life-long learning!

Truth, Justice, Independence, and the America way (?)

How important to remember that american justice, and democracy and capitalism was not, and is not, and could never be something handed to us from God-- a gift from above. What we have is a secular system. It is mainly based on a "violent ontology" according to John Millbank. "Justice" so-called, relies on power and overpowering someone else. What is one person's justice is another's imperialism, today.

Most often we say want want justice, and "retribution" is what is truly wanted. This is secular. Social justice involves a peaceable centrality of hope and healing. All justice is social justice.

God's justice is one of healing, restoration, and reconciliation with him and within his Bride, the church. Apart from community, justice is not found. We only have alienation, isolation, further greed, or sickness of soul.

The church's call then is to be the beacon for and bastion for justice in all realms. True justice. That of God, not man. The America way is the secular way. We've held up democracy and capitalism as our virtues, but these virtues apply justice with an violent ontology as they impose a self, rather than other centered focus. God's message is love centered. God applies his mercy. His worship and reverence comes first in a worldview that keeps him central. As American consumers, most tire of a God in this form, and shop around for something more to their liking. The American way is to change the channel, and make God, or church, and church community disposal, like last year's fashions. Secularized capitalism mentality is but no means just, and does not lead to justification, or spiritual formation.

After all Jesus saved us TO something-- the church as a body. As individuals we can devote ourselves, of course, but it is the church universal that is saved, not the individual merely. Americans have too far been made to think independently to the point of silliness. Our idea that we each choose, or ever should choose, all sorts of spiritual things as individuals is perilous, if not in grievous error. It is in the midst of community that we are safer kept from our tendency to self-deception, and invigorated with the Spirit among us, and well as within us.

America- the un-Christian nation and the way of Jesus

If we look at the words of Jesus, and we don't gloss over them, Jesus he spoke of his way--the way to God--as a "narrow path." Few would find it. Also, it he said it was a path that a rich man couldn't get to without a miracle from God. With a rich man's wealth, he would be so satisfied and distracted with himself, and with his possessions he would not be able to, would want to, or would find the Kingdom of heaven.

Sound like an American predicament? A bit.

"We" think we are a Christian nation. Funny, to think. But we are not. If anything, we are post-Christian. But were we ever "Christian"? Debatable.

Americans who like to think they are Christians, often shop for Church and for "jesus" or a spiritual pick-me-up, like any other consumer good. Sadly, the material and the holistic human creature don't fair well with a consumer capitalistic approach.

The way of Jesus (Christianity) is not fire insurance, it is a way of life. It is also view of the world through the Reality of the one who designed life-- with the Designer in mind, at the center of life. HERE and NOW. Not later.

Many Americans think they are in fact Christians, (in a sense following Christ). This is because they would say they are not Muslims, or Buddhists, or something else. But do they love Jesus? Are they devoted? Is he their prevailing Reality apart from which they cannot be? Um nope. But, if not, they are not true disciples.

Jesus' way, according to his teachings, is about true love for him and the Father. It's about first love, sustained love. It's not about getting a fix. It's not about making the right connection, to scratch the right itch. The Jesus way can be very humbling and painful. Uphill, with a cross daily, no less. It's also the way of dignity, and love filling us from the inside out. People forget that without God as center, we can only borrow dignity from another spot, it cannot be inherent. The way of Jesus is one of immense purpose, freedom with responsibility, justice within a reconciled, restored, living, and growing community. And too, hope of new life beyond the tumult and ills of this present world.

Jesus is the light and glory of the Greater Story, the one beyond the images and words we can muster, to the truest Reality we only begin to fathom, and more joy than we can tolerate.

Here is the invitation to the very narrow path. It is not where you think, up-for grabs or "purchase" at church. It is not the easy way. It comes when we forget ourselves to be found in God, and Jesus. It is not part of our American heritage, authentically, but it we can be authentically recreated and known.

Is God KNOWABLE?

Can we know God?

Yes and no. For one thing we can't even know people that well. We can live with a spouse for years and find out new things about them. People are deep wells of information, experiences, natures, and characters... but through time and devotion, we can get to know them....

BUT- what about God. God is SO different, right? He is UNFATHOMABLE. He created everything, and is everywhere, all-knowing, all-powerful, says Julie Clawson (at the emergent women website, thanks Julie) and says the Bible, right? How can we REALLY REALLY possibly KNOW him, right? He is beyond language. Correct? Well, the short answer is "yes, kind of."

God made it possible for us to have an amazing book in our reach called the Bible which talks all about him. It can't capture him fully with words, but certain language can loosely give a good contour. We can't sketch a sunset with pencil, but we can get some shapes down. We can't use words to describe what tasting coffee is truly like, but with words, we can outline a bit what the aroma is like and how good a warm cup tastes and feels when it is drank. One can imagine well what it is REALLY like based on a word description. So too with God. The reality of him can be known, but not fully grasped. He is knowable, but not fully comprehendible. It is limited knowledge, but entirely useful.

Let us not dismiss some of our best ways to encounter God by calling them shoddy when we use and trust language for so much else. It is on the basis of language, words, and propositions, that we first encounter all our initial ideas before they are incorporated into our lives. They are a starting point, not the end all be all to knowing God.

Do you know God? How have you encountered him? Feel free to leave your comments.