poisoned God language

Christians sometimes tend to push their agendas. People with bad experiences with Christians and church have poisoned views of church, religion, Christians, and God. But really we all long for love, beauty, truth, justice. In our attempts to dialogue, I contend we should builds bridges, and realize our common longings, not pick at other's wounds, or pound them with apologetics.

Here is some interesting dialogue I encountered.
Weigh in with your thoughts.

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from x:
lisa—you’re absolutely correct that [certain] reality is in the eye of the beholder. Seeing a perfect rose one day might impress upon me the beauty of the world at large one day and the next depress me because of the shallowness of what is accepted as “beauty”.

I don’t read Craig as being any less insistent upon his version of reality than anyone else, but perhaps I’m wrong. Each of us experiences the world and crafts our own reality from it. The dinner I just ate was “okay” to me but “great” to my husband. These are, I suppose, competing versions of reality and neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind. There may be no “neutral standpoint”, but that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss our experiences and both come away richer for it.

I’m not sure that science produces elitism any more than any other discipline (talk to any theologian, philosopher, or historian—or their armchair varieties). I’m not certain that science & religion are so at odds, I just think they describe vastly different matters. Just as philosophical logic is ill-suited to maths, mathematical logic is ill-suited to philosophy. Religion and science are similarly compatible but separate. I think a scientific approach to the Divine is idiotic—and a religious approach to science is criminal.

So we’re left with experiences. My experience of the Church of my parents is one of oppression, violence, and hatred. I’ve met wonderful people whose experience of that same religion is uplifting, peaceful, and holy. I’m baffled by that, but I respect it. My experience of atheism has been a community of disaffected ex-religionists who, in community, find solace, comfort, and safety away from the violence that religion has done to us.

Personally, I think it’s irresponsible of AA to preach God as a way to get over addiction. That’s not getting over addiction, that’s replacing a physically damaging addiction with a mentally damaging one.

I agree that there probably isn’t an “absolute truth” or definite answer to life, the universe, and everything (unless it’s 42), but I also think that you can touch truth, beauty, and perfection to know it exists. Sometimes, knowing that Justice is out there is the only thing that gives me hope. But I don’t pray to her, or worship her. I find it difficult to believe that any god needs my worship and adoration, or cares enough about my puny human problems to intercede & change the universe so that I’m happy. I think meditation/prayer are useful tools for me to get a grip on my own psyche and that ritual serves a need for routine. Just about every other aspect of religion (besides community) seems inherently dangerous, disingenuous, and, for want of a better word, evil.

26Craig // Nov 2, 2008 at 8:51 pm

x, it’s actually “47″.

But other than that, I agree completely.

27lisa // Nov 3, 2008 at 6:29 am

I just loved your post x. I totally agree with your “touch truth” sentence.

I’m surprised that you say that your atheist friends are made up of people who are just people who been hurt by religion. I should say I’m not surprised, too. I’ve been hurt by Christians too, and churches. Not good ones, though. Problem ones. It is a broken world. Free choice = potential problems, but also opportunity to do good freely as well. It so sad when people fail the God they supposedly love. It does much damage, I agree very much.

I guess to me it just seems like an emotional reason to not believe in God, not a very logical one, though the logical reason I guess get thought of later. I thought your group would be more thoughtful, coming from a more neutral spot. That’s so sad to hear, and my heart goes out to you and your friends. That totally sucks. If I had the chance I would love to speak to those who hurt you and tell them a few things.

I’m so sorry those things happened. They did the opposite of Love. In a community of love, those things are fought against. I experience the best and closest, most beautiful friendship you could imagine. My family was screwed up, but now I get to experience true Love, and I can tell you it’s very life changing. It’s not based on a rejection of another group for bonding and solace though. I truly hope you can find healing for the evils done against you.

Have you forgiven them?

28
x // Nov 3, 2008 at 3:20 pm

I guess I wouldn’t say that my atheist group is “just” people hurt by religion but that, having been hurt by religion, these people left it. My husband, as I often say, is the most a-theistic person I know, having been raised in an environment that never mentioned God. He’s also one of the most well-adjusted when it comes to religion. But he has no need of the atheist community like I do.

The apology on behalf religionists who cause injury is something that I come across rather frequently and I respect the place from which it comes, but I have to say that I find it rather disingenuous, since I would bet money that the people who apologize participate in the same hurtful actions that those who should apologize do. And as a sister once told me, an apology means nothing if there is intent to do it again.

Forgiveness is a very religious concept; one of many I’m trying to get out of my psyche. I can say that they acted in the way that they thought was right and that, when they stand before their God in the Court of their Heaven, they will have nothing to answer for. This does not make my wounds any shallower, but it helps me in my daily interactions with those who caused them.

Religion as a thing of beauty can exist only in the mind of one of its adherents. As soon as it enters two minds, its beauty is destroyed and it seeks only to cause pain. Jesus once said that he is there, wherever two or more are gathered. I think the real Truth of religion is that the Divine is only there in the silence of our hearts—in Beauty, in Love, and in Truth. But never collectively.

29lisa // Nov 3, 2008 at 6:57 pm

Well, x, you bring up an interesting point, and I also think a contradiction.

You said, “I think the real Truth of religion is that the Divine is only there in the silence of our hearts—in Beauty, in Love, and in Truth. But never collectively.” You also spoke of Justice in a similar way earlier. I think you are speaking of ideals. Yes? I think that you understand these to be something that you consider to be real, not fictitious. Yes? Things to give hope, to aspire to, and these things actually point “off the map.” Really they are not just found within. For instance, if you extinguished human life and creation, in an instance, Beauty and Truth and Justice and Love would not cease to be real.

Many people consider this to be spiritual language for that reason. If these things are beyond us, and infinite, perfection, and not fictitious, what are we really speaking of?

To know of these things and then to box them down as only infinite, and not powerful enough to be both infinite and also personal, smacks as ironical.

Beside that, I think people do share these ideals between others, not just in the silence of their hearts, but also within them as well. Part of loving someone can involve a deep shared love for these things and increased intimacy that grows between the two. My experience reflects the unity of community toward the divine, I believe, enacting the Trinity, in fact, if done properly.

To forgive really only means to cancel a debt. I’m not sure I understand why you think it is religious. Do you think people should not forgive each other? people should not apologize or offer others forgiveness for wrongs? Maybe you could unpack that for me, I guess I don’t understand your take on that one. I think, “Why carry a grudge? It’s like carrying around poison, no? Forgiving never validates an offense, but it does release the victim from more pain.”

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There is a lot of hurt out there. christians and church has done a bunch of it, too I've heard the pain first hand. What are ways we can reach people with God's love, in ways that really matter?

Truth, Justice, Independence, and the America way (?)

How important to remember that american justice, and democracy and capitalism was not, and is not, and could never be something handed to us from God-- a gift from above. What we have is a secular system. It is mainly based on a "violent ontology" according to John Millbank. "Justice" so-called, relies on power and overpowering someone else. What is one person's justice is another's imperialism, today.

Most often we say want want justice, and "retribution" is what is truly wanted. This is secular. Social justice involves a peaceable centrality of hope and healing. All justice is social justice.

God's justice is one of healing, restoration, and reconciliation with him and within his Bride, the church. Apart from community, justice is not found. We only have alienation, isolation, further greed, or sickness of soul.

The church's call then is to be the beacon for and bastion for justice in all realms. True justice. That of God, not man. The America way is the secular way. We've held up democracy and capitalism as our virtues, but these virtues apply justice with an violent ontology as they impose a self, rather than other centered focus. God's message is love centered. God applies his mercy. His worship and reverence comes first in a worldview that keeps him central. As American consumers, most tire of a God in this form, and shop around for something more to their liking. The American way is to change the channel, and make God, or church, and church community disposal, like last year's fashions. Secularized capitalism mentality is but no means just, and does not lead to justification, or spiritual formation.

After all Jesus saved us TO something-- the church as a body. As individuals we can devote ourselves, of course, but it is the church universal that is saved, not the individual merely. Americans have too far been made to think independently to the point of silliness. Our idea that we each choose, or ever should choose, all sorts of spiritual things as individuals is perilous, if not in grievous error. It is in the midst of community that we are safer kept from our tendency to self-deception, and invigorated with the Spirit among us, and well as within us.

Reality as you like it or as it is?

Neitzsche (1844-1900) defined truth as a "mobile army of metaphors" and it seems this the way we have "deconstructed it" or perceived it. However if this is truth, or actual reality, it is a moving not a fixed point. If that is true than you or anyone can pick a point for truth arbitrarily. If truth is arbitrary as Neitzsche believed, a train plunging into a dark tunnel never to emerge, then meaning itself is arbitrary and meaningless. Life is pointless and absurd. It has no set value. Philosophers should stop their work and we should all kill ourselves, right? This mindset's verdict claims truth and reality is meaningless. But doesn't it seem like there must be more to it than that?

Beauty and goodness point to something more. Our dreams, hopes, and stories beg for more. Our songs, arts, histories and epics have heroes that triumph over villains. We must ask why? It cannot just be vain hope. That's too simple an answer. Reality seems to have an ideal, and an ideal indicates a fixed point, not mobile army of metaphors. The mobile army explanation is helpful for cynics and a way to band-aid one's despair, but it takes us literally nowhere. It does not take us to reason because it doesn't really make sense. It does not take us to reality.

Deconstruction can be very helpful, but we've hardly attempted to deconstruct the history and culture that has deconstructed the nature of our current perceptions of reality and truth. Most of the time we take these paradigms and beliefs for granted like fish in a bowl who do not know they are wet. After we notice how we have been reduced and were we have been carried by our mobile army we may discover Socrates is closer to the truth than we are.